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Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4685		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  rd77 [ November 17th, 2013, 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
First of all, I'm happy to see that any thought at all is being given to replacing the M-frigates when they're done, rather than just cutting them. The proposed design looks quite versatile and should prove useful at many different tasks.
Author:  bezobrazov [ November 18th, 2013, 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
@Colombamike: it's not at all inconceivable that this frigate will end up with "hand-me-down" guns. Considering the steeply escalating cost to, not only design, but procure and build a ship of this size, any sensible government, be it Socialist, Liberal, or Conservative, would, in all likelyhood, attempt to shave costs whereever they can. So, if you already have ready-to-use guns in storage, then a wise measure would be to bring them up to snuff and fit them.
(Now, having said that, I confess not knowing much about the policies, either fiscal or else of the Dutch Government!)
Author:  Colombamike [ November 18th, 2013, 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
bezobrazov wrote:
@Colombamike: it's not at all inconceivable that this frigate will end up with "hand-me-down" guns. Considering the steeply escalating cost to, not only design, but procure and build a ship of this size, any sensible government, be it Socialist, Liberal, or Conservative, would, in all likelyhood, attempt to shave costs whereever they can. So, if you already have ready-to-use guns in storage, then a wise measure would be to bring them up to snuff and fit them (Now, having said that, I confess not knowing much about the policies, either fiscal or else of the Dutch Government!)
I am FULL aware of this, I know all , :| :

Few examples :

- Japanese "Murasame/Akisuki" postwar (late 1950's built) class destroyers => They used the second-hands 5"/54 Mk 16 guns (1944/1948's era built, onboard the US Midway fleet carrier's during late 1940's/mid 1950's)...
- Danish "Peder-Skram" postwar (mid 1960's built) class frigate => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Italian "Impavido" 1st generation missiles lass destroyer (early 1960's built) => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Spanish "Roger De Lauria" postwar destroyer class (commissioned by late 1960's) => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Dutch "Tromp" AAW destroyer class (early 1970's built) => They used the second-hands (Bofor 120mm/50 model 1950, early 1950's built for the Dutch postwar destroyer "Gelderland") guns.

...Even I suspect few US 5"/54 Mk 45 mod 0/1 (1970's built) mounts to end-up onboard some Danish (Absalon class) or South-Korean (FFX/Ulsan FFG's class) or Spanish (F100/Alvaro de Bazan class) ships.

I have Very Extremely Heavily Doubts :? that a 1980's built (onboard the Karel-Doorman FFG class) 76mm Oto-Melara gun remain effective during 2020's/2030's against hyper-hypersonic (mach 3+...) higly-manoeuvrable anti-ship missile... :roll:

At the same time
Useless (around 2018/2024) to build a stealh-warship (with stealth-hull), if this ship carry a 1970's designed gun-mount... :?
Author:  acelanceloet [ November 18th, 2013, 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
well the mounts of the karel doorman class are rebuild to be super rapid mounts. meaning, there is really no difference between them and the now new stealth version apart from the turret shape.
also, the ship is not all that stealthy, the RHIB's amidships for example spoil that already :P
Author:  Vossiej [ November 19th, 2013, 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
Colombamike wrote:
bezobrazov wrote:
@Colombamike: it's not at all inconceivable that this frigate will end up with "hand-me-down" guns. Considering the steeply escalating cost to, not only design, but procure and build a ship of this size, any sensible government, be it Socialist, Liberal, or Conservative, would, in all likelyhood, attempt to shave costs whereever they can. So, if you already have ready-to-use guns in storage, then a wise measure would be to bring them up to snuff and fit them (Now, having said that, I confess not knowing much about the policies, either fiscal or else of the Dutch Government!)
I am FULL aware of this, I know all , :| :

Few examples :

- Japanese "Murasame/Akisuki" postwar (late 1950's built) class destroyers => They used the second-hands 5"/54 Mk 16 guns (1944/1948's era built, onboard the US Midway fleet carrier's during late 1940's/mid 1950's)...
- Danish "Peder-Skram" postwar (mid 1960's built) class frigate => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Italian "Impavido" 1st generation missiles lass destroyer (early 1960's built) => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Spanish "Roger De Lauria" postwar destroyer class (commissioned by late 1960's) => They used the second-hands (even third-hands ?) 5"/38 guns (WW2 era built).
- Dutch "Tromp" AAW destroyer class (early 1970's built) => They used the second-hands (Bofor 120mm/50 model 1950, early 1950's built for the Dutch postwar destroyer "Gelderland") guns.

...Even I suspect few US 5"/54 Mk 45 mod 0/1 (1970's built) mounts to end-up onboard some Danish (Absalon class) or South-Korean (FFX/Ulsan FFG's class) or Spanish (F100/Alvaro de Bazan class) ships.

I have Very Extremely Heavily Doubts :? that a 1980's built (onboard the Karel-Doorman FFG class) 76mm Oto-Melara gun remain effective during 2020's/2030's against hyper-hypersonic (mach 3+...) higly-manoeuvrable anti-ship missile... :roll:

At the same time
Useless (around 2018/2024) to build a stealh-warship (with stealth-hull), if this ship carry a 1970's designed gun-mount... :?
Don't forget about the Zeven Provincien class frigates! Ultra-modern stealth ships with 1960's ex-Canadian guns ;)
Author:  MC Spoilt B'stard [ November 19th, 2013, 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
Vossiej wrote:
Dear lord, where did you find that Superboy? :shock:

I updated the drawing according to Colombamike's comments (see first post), I actually do want this drawing to be perfect after seeing Superboy's image. I won't add any other details until I can get a better look at those CGI's.
The design is a 2010 internal studie from the Defence Material Organisation (DMO). the design is 100% made by DMO no cooperation with Thales and/or Damen Shipyards. Thats why you see all those '' stolen'' features from LCF / OPV / FREMM etc.
Colombamike wrote:
2.5 round :shock:
[ img ]
Mini hangar aft for mini-UAV ? :shock:
With 2 catapults ? :shock:
Yes a small UAV hangar + 1 catapult and i guess 1 recovery ''crane'' for the Scan Eagle UAV system.
Its used aboard the LPD's now and i seen designs from Damen using it onboard of OPV's so why not on frigates?
[ img ]
Image of Dutch Scan Eagle UAV being recovered aboard HNLMS Rotterdam in 2012.
[ source: thepostonline.nl ]
Author:  Vossiej [ November 19th, 2013, 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
Hmm seems like a dangerous spot to recover any flying thing... A tiny wind gust and she will fly into the superstructure! But an awesome feature nonetheless, thanks for the info MCspoilt! ;)
Author:  acelanceloet [ November 19th, 2013, 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
hey, it is an design by DMO, not by anyone having experience with ships! :P
Author:  Colombamike [ November 21st, 2013, 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
@ Vossiej,
My two cents for the M-Frigate replacement study (in term of design)
Included quick opinion about own/AU-design's...
[ img ]
Author:  Philbob [ November 22nd, 2013, 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Netherlands Navy M-frigate replacement study
This might be a good time to verify there is the L, M, S class frigates that are part the Doorman's family right?
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